Once you've efficiently done that, you can focus on pursuing profitable business for your agency.
If not, you'll end up falling short of providing a service experience those clients need and expect.
There's something to be said about punching above your weight to find neglected good-sized accounts.
Matt Snowden, founder of Talanton Insurance, talks about the trials and errors he's faced to find his agency ahead of schedule looking for its next challenge.
Joey Giangola: Mr. Matt Snowden. How are you doing today sir?
Matt Snowden: I'm great Joey, how about you?
Joey Giangola: Matt I'm doing all right, I am doing all right indeed. Before we really jump into anything too serious, I want to know this first. The thing I want to know is how do you handle getting asked the same question all the time, over and over again?
Matt Snowden: I don't think it's ever happened.
Joey Giangola: I only ask because I mean, I have to ask your name is Snowden. So I have to imagine that that has to get asked to you almost every client meeting when you go in and be like, are you related to Ed?
Matt Snowden: I feel like you're really forward because most people ask it in some more passive way. Like, well are you the guy? Or do you know the guy? So it's actually a fun game of trying to interpret what they're trying to ask me. And growing up it was a totally obscure name. And then all of a sudden one day I come into work and at the time, so I got into insurance on purpose mid-career and I came out of one of the largest banks in the world. And I was in a part of the bank that was under extraordinary regulatory scrutiny at the time.
And so I'm convinced that they were reading my emails daily to figure out if I knew the guy and his name was on the TV every day in our different centers that had TVs in them. And so it was an interesting time. And so the long answer is I don't know him. I don't don't know that we're related. We're generally in the same generation. And so the family tree wouldn't tell the story. But based on where I grew up and where he grew up it's in the relatively unique nature of Snowden. There's a good chance we're related but we've never met at the family reunion.
Joey Giangola: Well, that's good to know. And I guess I am probably a little more forward. Actually I like that game better of trying to see if they're getting after that or not. I would be very interested in the variations you've gotten of that question for sure.
Matt Snowden: It's a fun game of cat and mouse.
Joey Giangola: I mean that's the other part of it too because again, like you said, for most of your life it was just a very pedestrian name. And then all of a sudden, it's not like you went and named your kid, Michael Jordan on purpose and like torturing him, it's just something that was thrust upon you out of nowhere. Well, the interesting part about this is that not only do you have that initial kind of pleasantry kind of reoccurring interaction, this is something that I would imagine is pretty common place to almost every insurance agent having to answer the same question over and over again. How do you handle that encounter? Because there is just sort of a base level information that goes into almost every insurance conversation. Do you try to, I guess what is your secret to not driving yourself crazy with that?
Matt Snowden: That's a good question. I would say that it actually helps that there's some consistency in the questions because then we're prepared and we can work on that as our craft develops. What we're doing as an agency is we're trying to capture these questions as they come up and we're going to develop FAQs on our website, blog posts around it. And we have already developed email templates where we have some standardization to how we answer that. And there's two reasons for that. One is it's redundant and so it's a more efficient way to answer the question. But also it reduces the chances that we feel the need to get creative and somehow trip ourselves into an ENO issue because we looked for a more creative way to answer the same question.
Joey Giangola: Let's go this route. Is there a question that early in your career that you maybe struggled with that you maybe noticed yourself improving upon over the years? That you've like, man, I've really got this down. Before you used to get a bunch of objections and now it's just part of the thing.
Matt Snowden: So I came into the industry in a very professional well-established agency focused on middle market contractors. And so it was kind of the deep end of the pool. So virtually every question I got asked was out of my depth. Whether it was about a particular form. The client is accustomed to whatever it is they trip over on a regular basis as it relates to insurance. And at the time I had to become pretty good at saying, I think I can answer that question but let me ask somebody that knows better than I do. Because we had a great group of guys and gals that were more experienced than myself. So becoming really affective at how to phone a friend was the early version of the answer. And then as I became the friend that got phoned, becoming more efficient and consistent in how I answered the question became really important.
Joey Giangola: Yeah. Did you find yourself knowing or being able to, I guess avoid those rabbit holes that you would potentially leave yourself open to and kind of keep the conversation on track? Is that something that developed with that over time?
Matt Snowden: Well, we generally speaking we try not to make the conversation all about the insurance. We try to make it about how and why we'd be the best representative for them in the marketplace and then control the account. So I try really hard not to make the conversation about our technical knowledge because as odd this may sound technical knowledge is fairly easy to come by once you know where to phone a friend. And the ability to actually relate to a client, have them feel good about spending money that they don't necessarily want to spend and often spend more with you than they thought they were going to because we found out there was actually a technical problem that we uncovered, that is all an art, not a science and it's really about our people skills. So we really lean on our people skills first because the technical knowledge we have and it's a given and it's a price of admission to be at that table having that conversation.
Joey Giangola: All right Matt, I got to ask this question because I got to know if there's a good answer. Is there a non-technical just part of the conversation question that you find most effective in sort of opening that can up for people to have sort of an enjoyable experience? Is there something you go to that really gets them talking?
Matt Snowden: I like to know who they're using today and why they're using them. Both the retail agent and the carrier. And if they know the wholesaler in the middle. And so that helps me understand maybe the experience they've had. And I can ask questions about that experience and we're boutique agency. We certainly aren't the big boy in town and by design. So we're really looking for an account where they value what they can get in a boutique experience as opposed to what they get in a large production shop. And so really for me the way it becomes enjoyable is understanding how we can relate to them and help them accomplish their business goal with the necessary function of buying insurance rather than how we can sell them better technical knowledge and better risk control and all of the things that everybody has access to. They just package it differently.
Joey Giangola: I want to go back to something that you'd sort of initially said in the beginning talking about your sort of intentional entrance into the industry sort of mid careers you had mentioned. What sort of brought you in I guess to want to even sell insurance. And it sounds like kind of everything you're doing has been very intentional to create that, like you said boutique experience. I guess take me down that process.
Matt Snowden: Yeah. So I grew up in a small town in Southeastern Ohio where West Virginia, Kentucky and Ohio all come together. So if you said that I was from West Virginia, culturally and contextually that would actually be a more appropriate representation of where I grew up than to say I'm from Ohio. Although my zip code and my mailing address were certainly Ohio. So given that, I was really fortunate, we had had family in that town for generations. And my best buddy growing up was a fourth generation family agency in the county seat where I grew up. And so I always had a lot of admiration for that family. I told them that many times. They are ultimately the reason that I got into the business because I felt like if I could have what they had for my life, I'd be pretty happy with what I created. Had a lot of respect for them, had a lot of respect for the position they had in the community and what they did to help advance the community's interests.
So I had a model that I wanted to follow and was really fortunate to have that. And I had an uncle that had a state farm agency. My dad had done a short snit in insurance. So I had some familiarity with the business and I had a good model. And actually when I started my agency, I had gone home and met with the uncle, my buddy's uncle who now runs the agency. And he pointed me back to the big eye locally to get some answers to some more market specific questions I had. And that led to some great connections and getting involved at the big eye, getting connected with some agency principles led to an acquisition and ultimately put me on the right track. So for me, it's there was a great path to follow as long as I was willing to be coachable.
Joey Giangola: Yeah, and first I just have to say from a person currently living in Ohio and has lived in Ohio forever, I know exactly what you mean when you're saying you were borderline West Virginia. But I have to know, what's the small town Matt, like what was the small town?
Matt Snowden: Gallipolis.
Joey Giangola: Okay. I can't say I'm familiar with it. Is it east or west of Athens? Probably-
Matt Snowden: It's about 45 minutes south of Athens.
Joey Giangola: Oh, okay. Oh, even further south.
Matt Snowden: Right on the river.
Joey Giangola: It's down there. It is down there. Okay.
Matt Snowden: Yeah, right on the river, looking into West Virginia, about 45 minutes south of Athens.
Joey Giangola: And then so it sounds like you obviously had a bunch of insurance around you. So it's not something that you just kind of threw a dart at a map on a wall or just like a bunch of career choices. You made a comment about again like the agency maybe even competing against the bigger guys in some aspects. Is that something that you maybe look for in a way to say, this is how we're going to stand up, this is how we're going to snag some of these accounts. What has that been like in terms of taking your agency up against maybe competition that you feel you might maybe that you're punching above your weight class or maybe that doesn't happen I don't know.
Matt Snowden: Yeah, we can make a great living on accounts that are in the bottom half or bottom quarter of what the big shops feel like they can make money on just because of how we're structured. And as we grow certainly the floor for what is a profitable account for us has to also raise. But we've been pretty intentional that you look for accounts where we know we can profitably serve them the way they need to be served over the long run. And we probably walk away from more business than we try to write. And as a result of that, we're a bit more picky in the profiling process early on.
And I think it does allow us to focus on the conversation of how we can be the dark horse or the unsuspecting competitor that comes in and takes a shot on goal while perhaps the larger agency has been a bit more distracted or a bit less engaged with the client. And the client as they're growing feels like they're spending more and more money, more and more resource that's not either in their pocket or helping them grow their business on insurance. And at the end of the day, would they rather spend that with us and the attention and care that we can provide or would they rather spend it where they are today?
Joey Giangola: So you said something that kind of goes against what most people are taught in insurance. And that's saying no more than you say yes because there's the old saying of, if it as a pulse, I'll try and write it to insurance. How long did it take you to get to that part? Is that something that you started right out of the gate? And part of that sage like advice from your sort of your already built in insurance network?
Matt Snowden: Not, not really. I would say it's actually one of the scars. There's a saying don't ever follow the leader that doesn't have any scars. And so I intentionally left a really great career and I was the sole breadwinner while I was at the bank. My wife was in bed, sick, pregnant with our first child. I'm working my first 13 months at this insurance agency where I started. And they called me in one morning and said, it's not good news. You can do whatever you want, as long as it's not here. And so I came home unusually early to a wife who was in bed, sick, pregnant with our first. We'd already lost the baby along the way. And I said, good news, bad news, good news is you're going to see a lot more me, bad news is the paycheck ended today. And so we spent a year, or not a year.
We took that summer before the baby was born who's now as of this recording, he's about to turn six. And we spent the summer in a single wide trailer with our two dogs on a mountaintop in West Virginia while I licked my wounds. And as my non-compete ended and I came back into the business, I thought about some of the things that might not have been right about the way I approached the industry when I started at that big shop. And I think looking at and working on accounts that they didn't find profitable at their scale was probably the beginning of the end for me. I didn't actually appreciate how important it was to take on the accounts that we could make money on as an enterprise. All I noticed was what I could produce as an agent, not what it meant for the enterprise and the commission revenue tied to it. And how much resource would go into doing any particular account the justice it deserved. I actually learned a lot from that experience of being fired and how to say no so that I could say yes over the long run.
Joey Giangola: I don't know how you did it, Matt but you took a story that was particularly terrifying and you made me not, like I actually felt it sounded like a good time, like mountaintop, west Virginia RV it all sounded like a nice time. But seems like you have like an ability to sort of be overly optimistic or positive about situations. And is that something that you kind of, I might be reading into that a little bit, but is that something that came along with that trying to kind stay positive? And how did that sort of experience translate into how you communicate to your staff now and sort of communicating that sort of enterprise first, let's make it good for everybody approach?
Matt Snowden: I would say that my entrepreneurial spirit probably makes me a pretty terrible employee, which is why when I could have certainly landed at another agency the same day. And I actually had a job offer that day before I got home. And I just said I'm not your guy. I've got to figure this out and today's not the day I'm going to figure it out. And so being able to self-reflect critically and just be honest with myself, what didn't work. I think breeds optimism. It gives us back a degree of control and that lack of control over my own destiny when I was employed at a large agency is probably the thing that makes me so optimistic about what I'm doing today and why I'm building talent on into what it's going to be. We're already somewhere I'd like to be we're further along than I ever thought we would be, but there's a lot of runway left.
I'm a young guy with tons of opportunity. And so if I wanted to be a pessimist, I'd probably been an underwriter. Instead I became a producer and I believe in a lot of ways that this is where I can produce the greatest opportunity for myself, my team and my family. And by extension my clients and my carrier partners. So yeah, I guess the optimism is a requisite for both the job as a producer but also as an agency principle because we are just absolutely facing change. Change that's out of our control, change that's disappointing and frustrating on a daily basis. Whether it's at the client level or oftentimes at the carrier and partner level. And the magnitude of change that we have to react to on a daily, weekly, monthly annual basis is extraordinary. And if the sky's falling and we're trying to figure out what's our fastest path to an exit, we're never going to endure the amount of trauma it's going to take to win in the long run in this business.
Joey Giangola: I'm afraid somebody might put at that saying on a t-shirt somewhere mad. If I wanted to be a pessimist I would have been an underwriter, it might happen. And they'll have to give you credit or something copyright.
Matt Snowden: Yeah, I'll take a royalty. That's fine.
Joey Giangola: Yeah. Feels like the next insurance shirt. But-
Matt Snowden: Is there a first insurance shirt?
Joey Giangola: I mean there's a few I think. I don't know, actually I don't know.
Matt Snowden: It should be a cottage industry. And we could probably start with participation shirts for conferences.
Joey Giangola: Well, I was going to say there's plenty of those because I have a closet full for sure. But yeah, I think the interesting thing is that like you said, you're ahead of schedule. So what does that do to sort of your outlook for your agency? I mean one it's probably a good place to be, but at the same time with your positivity, has there been a moment where it's like, oh wait, wait a second. Like I got to think of the next thing now. And being somebody sort of steering the ship, how do you go through that process to make sure you're kind of always I guess keeping up on the treadmill in terms of where your ideas have to lead the agency?
Matt Snowden: One of my biggest challenges, I don't know if other agency principles face this either as a function of age or tenure or just established practices, but avoiding the shiny object. What's the new, cool thing, the new technology, the new system, the new management system, the new soft, whatever it is. There is an entire industry designed to take us off of our focus which is producing profitable business for us and our carriers so that we can properly protect our clients. I really look to what has been proven to work.
I fancy myself a fairly intelligent guy but I'm not sure I'm smarter than everybody that ever came before me. And so just like how I got into the business, I said there's a model here that I can learn from. And I may not be able to exactly replicate it at my stage of life, living in Metro Phoenix, being a newcomer to the industry but I have some vision for where we want to be. And so I intentionally look for resources in other agency principles, through the big eye, through podcasts like this to say, who can I either hire or glean free knowledge and wisdom from through their public presentations like a podcast and pick up one or two things that make us a little bit better each day.
Joey Giangola: All right. Well, you cracked this door Matt so I have to kick it open. In terms of shiny objects, and let's just say what's the thing that you find to maybe be the most overrated that you find agents chasing that maybe didn't work for you or for whatever reason. But again, it just doesn't lend itself to, like you said, that sort of core mission that we all maybe need to spend a little more time refocusing on.
Matt Snowden: I would say in the short run, I'm bullish on the long run bearish on the short run in this answer. So our ability to access, rely upon and utilize data in our management systems is so far behind where it could be. And I've consistently engaged with businesses that have come in and said, we have this figured out and I've consistently been disappointed and walked away. I don't blame the tech person that's trying to sell us that vision. I blame the legacy systems and kind of entrenched players that help us transmit, receive and manage that data. And I don't think they're ready to play in the same sandbox as the upstarts that actually understand what that data could be. Or maybe they don't want to because there's too much value in it. But I'm consistently disappointed in that shiny object and have largely written it off as I'm not going to be the pioneer there, I'll come back and play again when there's a bit more proof in the pudding
Joey Giangola: On the flip side of that, what's the most underrated that you just can't understand why people aren't taking advantage of more?
Matt Snowden: Snail mail.
Joey Giangola: Ooh, okay. Well do tell Matt.
Matt Snowden: I just believe that it's now suddenly novel. I would say at my house I get no shortage of solicitations from some usually captive to take my home and auto to them and get paid for them to write my insurance I think based on the marketing that I receive. But in reality, outside of that, which I don't find to be terribly effective, mailing things to people is a bit expensive if you compare it to say digital marketing but rather uncommon. And so if they get something from us in the mail, whether it's a standardized piece that everybody got or it's something customized to them, both of which we find to be quite effective. At a minimum they saw it and they recognized it. And when we had a conversation with them or oftentimes they've called us because it was time to call us, I'm convinced it works. I'm not sure I have the secret sauce. It's probably the marketing thing that 50% of my marketing works. I just don't know which 50%, someday we'll know. But right now I still can make two plus two equal five.
Joey Giangola: Is there anything a little bit more specific? Like you said, you do some customized, you do some generic. Is there a next level to that? That if you had to say dust off these old mailing skills guys, this is maybe one thing I've learned along the way of making these things a little more effective?
Matt Snowden: Again, I'm not sure I have it figured out but for me, I actually don't think they need more insurance information in their mailbox. I think they just need to be reminded of a person and or an agency or both with whom they can have a real relationship with real humans that aren't hiding behind 1-800-GET-LOST.
Joey Giangola: Makes sense. All right Matt, I've got three more questions for you sir. And the first one is what is one thing that you hope you never forget?
Matt Snowden: That we can start over and it'll be okay.
Joey Giangola: All right, optimistic again. On the other side of that, what is one thing you still have yet to learn?
Matt Snowden: Contentment.
Joey Giangola: All right, Matt. You're very, to the point on these, I like it.
Matt Snowden: Sorry. Was I supposed to write an answer?
Joey Giangola: No, no, no, no. I just, I didn't know if you wanted to elaborate. I mean, I didn't know if you wanted to back it up. It's just there it is. It's what it is. So I appreciate that. So let's wrap things up. Last question to you, sir. If I were to hand you a magic wand of sorts to reshape, change, alter, speed up any part of insurance, what is that thing, where is it going and what is it doing?
Matt Snowden: I think we as an agency, I can't speak to the industry, are making progress here. But I hate accords and the sub apps aren't far behind them. And so somehow reducing the amount of friction and tedious data entry process that goes into gathering exactly what an underwriter needs in order to underwrite a risk would be enormously helpful. And after we do that, we often are encouraged to take on the expense and the expertise of entering it into their web system which they're convinced is the best in a given carrier. So then we can rate it online and about one third of the questions we asked the client at the behest of some underwriter somewhere along the way are actually necessary for them to underwrite the risk. So if you could fix that with a magic wand Joey, you win.
Joey Giangola: No promises here Matt but this has been fantastic. And I'm going to leave it right there sir.
Matt Snowden: Thanks sir.